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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 18, 2009 22:41:05 GMT -5
SOUTHEAST LEAGUE
Existing Teams 1. Touchet 2. LaCrosse-Washtucna 3. St. John-Endicott 4. Sunnyside Christian 5. Colton New Teams 6. Pomeroy 7. Garfield-Palouse
8. Tekoa-Oaksdale - sounding like they are still going to let them combo for football and opt-up together.
9. Rosalia Opt Down Ineligible Teams
10. Tri-Cities Prep - sounds like late 2B decision 11. Liberty Christian
NORTHEAST LEAGUE
Exisitng Teams 1. Cusick 2. Almira/Coulee-Hartline 3. Curlew 4. Sprague-Harrington 5. Odessa 6. Wellpinit 7. Columbia-Hunters/Inchelium (talking about a combo) 8. Wilbur-Creston New Teams (now eligible) 9. Valley Christian 10. Selkirk
PACIFIC COAST LEAGUE NORTH
Existing Teams 1. Lummi 2. Neah Bay 3. Crescent 4. Highland Christian Prep 5. Lopez 6. Clallam Bay New Teams 7. Quilcene
PACIFIC COAST LEAGUE SOUTH
Exisitng Teams 1. Wishkah Valley 2. Lake Quinault 3. Oakville 4. King's Way Christian 5. Easton-Thorp 6. Tahola 7. WSD 8. Mary Knight New Teams 9. Lyle-Wishram
Independent Team (JV Schedule) 1. Mansfield
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 18, 2009 22:50:41 GMT -5
The SE League just got stronger, plus, if they end up with all 11 of these teams and they all play each other then they will have no non-league games.
It is my understanding, from different things I have read that a 1B can combine with a 2B and they can play a 2B sport, however, a 1B and another 1B can not combine and play a 2B sport then separate and play their other sports 1B. Basically you can't "opt-up" for one sport and play the rest of your sports at 1B, let alone combine and opt-up for one sport just the same. So I think the Tekoa-Oakesdale-Rosalia combine should be officially over altogether if that is correct. Thoughts on that scenario? I know that I have received a lot of emails asking me if I knew for sure or not and I do not know for sure but from what I have read and researched I have not seen it done this way.
Any input on this scenario would be great!
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 19, 2009 10:44:38 GMT -5
One clarification, Crazy8. Lyle-Wishram is not yet officially in the Pac South. From my understanding it won't be decided until February.
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Post by CoachK on Dec 19, 2009 12:49:05 GMT -5
Evergreen Lutheran and Mt. Rainier Lutheran have been entertaining thoughts of playing 8-man football. Don't know what league they would join -- PCS or PCN.
Also, I have heard that Lopez and HCP may drop football. Don't know for sure if that is true or not.
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 21, 2009 17:38:26 GMT -5
Ok, newest scuttlebutt is that Odessa and Harrington are looking to combine for sports.
This would throw a wrench into things...like for instance, where does Sprague go?
Also heard that Pomeroy has not signed and sealed their decision to stay at 1B for sure, they are meeting this week to determine final outcome.
Question: Why does a school with a count of 4 kids from 10-12 count as one of the 62 teams in the 1B classification? That one throws me for a loop?
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Post by CoachK on Dec 21, 2009 18:39:53 GMT -5
4 is equal to the IQ of the WIAA---I didn't say that !!!!
Sprague can go West and join with Ritzville/Lind. The 3 schools would be under the 188 limit.... 2B
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Post by SCSfan on Dec 21, 2009 19:56:09 GMT -5
Moving the 1B student head count up and allowing smaller 2B schools to opt down helps schools (like Selkirk, Pomeroy, Garfield-Palouse, Wilbur-Creston, Tekoa-Oakesdale, Liberty Christian, Tricities Prep, and others) to avoid having to play at the 2B level against schools that are their size and larger than them.
But what impact does that have on the average 1B school which typically has only 40 to 60 students in their high school? Hard to say exactly, but any coach will tell you that the school with twice as many students has a significant advantage. Make no mistake about it, the schools on the top of the student 1B head count are going to typically beat up the average size 1B schools because they have so many more athletes to draw from. The wider the WIAA makes the gap between the average size 1B school and the larger 1B schools the more difficult it is going to be for the average 1B schools to compete, not to mention the truly small 1B schools. I wonder how these larger 1B schools would feel if they were playing against schools with two to almost three times the number of students than they have?
Perhaps the WIAA should give serious consideration to creating two separate 1B classifications for larger and smaller student head count schools. Both 1B classifications could still play each other during the regular season, but during the playoffs they would only play schools with similar student head counts. If Idaho can do this with its fewer number of teams, then the state of Washington could certainly make this work. There has to be a better solution than simply benefiting larger schools by pushing the 1B student numbers up or burdening larger schools by making them play at the 2B level or allowing them to play at the 1B level, but not be eligible for the playoffs. It is time for the WIAA to give serious attention to the student head count issue of smaller and larger 1B schools.
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Post by prescottiger on Dec 21, 2009 20:17:01 GMT -5
If those in the TOR combo are going to have to split, someone needs to tell Tekoa, Oaksdale and Rosalia. Right now, they are planning to play together in 2B football next fall. Also, with only five SE 2B football schools, there's talk of joining with the NE, which also may be down to five next year.
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 21, 2009 21:31:40 GMT -5
Perhaps the WIAA should give serious consideration to creating two separate 1B classifications for larger and smaller student head count schools. Isn't that how we got the 1B and 2B to begin with? There are 6 classifications in Washington already (as does Idaho and Oregon)- we don't need any more. No one needs to tell us how difficult it is for a school that is on the lower end of a classification to compete and be succesful. We have been fighting that battle ever since the 'Great B Break-up'. We were just over the 1B mark. Our athletes played their hearts out even when the outcome was praticaly predetermined. Now that we will be 1B for the next few years our athletes are feeling positve again. Heck we may even get to a State tourney in a sport or two now.
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 21, 2009 23:32:12 GMT -5
Moving the 1B student head count up and allowing smaller 2B schools to opt down helps schools (like Selkirk, Pomeroy, Garfield-Palouse, Wilbur-Creston, Tekoa-Oakesdale, Liberty Christian, Tricities Prep, and others) to avoid having to play at the 2B level against schools that are their size and larger than them. But what impact does that have on the average 1B school which typically has only 40 to 60 students in their high school? Hard to say exactly, but any coach will tell you that the school with twice as many students has a significant advantage. Make no mistake about it, the schools on the top of the student 1B head count are going to typically beat up the average size 1B schools because they have so many more athletes to draw from. The wider the WIAA makes the gap between the average size 1B school and the larger 1B schools the more difficult it is going to be for the average 1B schools to compete, not to mention the truly small 1B schools. I wonder how these larger 1B schools would feel if they were playing against schools with two to almost three times the number of students than they have? Perhaps the WIAA should give serious consideration to creating two separate 1B classifications for larger and smaller student head count schools. Both 1B classifications could still play each other during the regular season, but during the playoffs they would only play schools with similar student head counts. If Idaho can do this with its fewer number of teams, then the state of Washington could certainly make this work. There has to be a better solution than simply benefiting larger schools by pushing the 1B student numbers up or burdening larger schools by making them play at the 2B level or allowing them to play at the 1B level, but not be eligible for the playoffs. It is time for the WIAA to give serious attention to the student head count issue of smaller and larger 1B schools. How did it help TCP and Liberty Christian? They have to play ineligible 8-man football because they do not even have 20 kids out for the sport. The difference between 45 kids and 92 kids is nothing compared to the gap between all the other classifications (which is between 300-500). Most teams (schools) with less than 45 are combining with other towns. The few that can't it is unfortunate but ultimately comes down to whether or not you can field a football team. Only takes 5 for basketball which is the primary sport for a majority of the schools in that student range. Not to mention they count sophomore through seniors. I know for a fact that both Liberty Christian and TCP have large senior classes that will not be around to play 2B for next two years. Thus, their freshman through junior enrollment is well below the 2B range (both in around the 74-78 area). I personally have never figured out why they count sophomore through senior when the seniors are graduating and you don't have them for that two-year cycle anyway...never understood that. I don't think you can have two 1B classifications for football purposes only (as is the main reason you would have two divisions). As is, you do not have 62 teams playing football from the 1B level. You only have approximately 34 playoff eligible 8-man teams right now. If you split that in half then you have 17 schools in each. Basically just enough schools for two decent size leagues. Not much fun in playoffs when half the division makes the state tournament. Just my thoughts on it....
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Post by CoachK on Dec 21, 2009 23:55:23 GMT -5
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 22, 2009 0:21:41 GMT -5
One of the best idea's I have heard....I like that logic. Make 8-man football a separate deal altogether. Allow schools to play 1B football and 2B all other sports and then you could possibly have two divisions.
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Post by CoachK on Dec 22, 2009 0:32:56 GMT -5
some of the smaller schools could play 6-man football -- Montana does this.
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 22, 2009 9:59:06 GMT -5
Where would you put the cut-off for 'Small 1B' and 'Large 1B'? Ok, so let's say the cut-off would be 70. I can hear it now, "Gosh darn it, (insert school name here) has 71 kids and they have to play against these behemoths that have 105 kids. They don't stand a chance. " Crazy8, I too agree that using seniors in the classification count is ridiculous. I don't understand why that wasn't changed last year when it came up for a vote to include Freshman through Juniors rather than Sophomores through Seniors.
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 22, 2009 11:34:33 GMT -5
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Post by Compass Rose on Dec 23, 2009 0:00:50 GMT -5
One of the best idea's I have heard....I like that logic. Make 8-man football a separate deal altogether. Allow schools to play 1B football and 2B all other sports and then you could possibly have two divisions. Makes sense to me too. And my immediate gut reaction? Because it makes sense, it will not happen.
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 26, 2009 17:42:10 GMT -5
If those in the TOR combo are going to have to split, someone needs to tell Tekoa, Oaksdale and Rosalia. Right now, they are planning to play together in 2B football next fall. Also, with only five SE 2B football schools, there's talk of joining with the NE, which also may be down to five next year. After researching and emailing I found this much out. It looks like you can't (or should not be able to) combo with another school when you are both 1B schools and play up for that one particular sport. One of the two schools would have to be an opt-up school and already be in the 2B classification. Since both Rosalia and T-O are 1B schools and neither are opting up as a full-time 2B schools then they can not do it just for football. Before, when T-O was 2B it was fine for Rosalia to join them ("fine" meaning many didn't like it, but fine in terms of not being against any rules). In this scenario, both schools are saying they are 1B, so they can't say they are 2B for one sport while combing. This would be the same (as many have told me so far) as a 1B school with a really strong basketball program playing 1B in all sports except opting up to 2B for basketball because they want to. That is not possible by the WIAA standards that have been set. When this comparison scenario was brought to my attention it made perfect sense to me and cleared it up. So I see no possible way they can continue their combine.
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Post by lwkfootballmom on Dec 27, 2009 11:13:50 GMT -5
I know in track last year LWK combined with SJE, and ran 2B at meets and state. Both those teams were 1B in basketball and football?? Im sure that throws a wrench into things lol... but that is what was done last year.
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 27, 2009 19:25:14 GMT -5
I thought track was just like Cross Country, 1B's and 2B's combined? If so, it would not matter. If not, then yes...that would be a somewhat comparable scenario.
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 28, 2009 8:48:43 GMT -5
Klickitat combined with us (Lyle-Wishram) for 2B football but played other sports as a 1B. As far as track goes, the 1B's and 2B's are not combined. They do compete together at State on the same day, etc but are scored seperately.
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Post by GridironBeez on Dec 28, 2009 9:57:45 GMT -5
Klickitat combined with us (Lyle-Wishram) for 2B football but played other sports as a 1B. As far as track goes, the 1B's and 2B's are not combined. They do compete together at State on the same day, etc but are scored seperately. Did anyone in that group (Lyle) for example stay 2B for all their sports for the season? If one school in the combo is 2b the by the numbers then it would be no different then what T-O-R has done in the past. But if everyone was 1B then that is the scenario I am looking at. Just a matter of time for individual sport opt-up's if the WIAA allows these combo's for one sport to happen. You can't stop it once you allow it, regardless of circumstances. I don't think people are realizing exactly what these scenario's bring to the table. T-O being 1B now is completely different then when they were 2B in regards to their combine with Rosalia. I will say it again, if a 1B school decided to opt-up for one sport and play down for all the others and they were a basketball power the won the 2B tournament, oh my Lord would something hit the fan.
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Post by Coug Coach on Dec 28, 2009 10:39:27 GMT -5
Klickitat combined with us (Lyle-Wishram) for 2B football but played other sports as a 1B. As far as track goes, the 1B's and 2B's are not combined. They do compete together at State on the same day, etc but are scored separately. Did anyone in that group (Lyle) for example stay 2B for all their sports for the season? If one school in the combo is 2b the by the numbers then it would be no different then what T-O-R has done in the past. But if everyone was 1B then that is the scenario I am looking at. Just a matter of time for individual sport opt-up's if the WIAA allows these combo's for one sport to happen. You can't stop it once you allow it, regardless of circumstances. I don't think people are realizing exactly what these scenario's bring to the table. T-O being 1B now is completely different then when they were 2B in regards to their combine with Rosalia. I will say it again, if a 1B school decided to opt-up for one sport and play down for all the others and they were a basketball power the won the 2B tournament, oh my Lord would something hit the fan. Ever since "The Bickleton Rule" "The Great Divide" (B's into 1B and 2B) Lyle-Wishram has been 2B in every sport with the exception of football the past 3 years when we have opted to 'play down'. Klickitat has played football with us the whole time, with the exception of this year. L-K-W had played 11 man football until 3 years ago. I believe you, Crazy8, that that is the rule. I have no problem believing somethings have slid through the cracks at the WIAA level.
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Post by prescottiger on Dec 28, 2009 12:57:18 GMT -5
During the first two years after the 1B/2B split, both Rosalia and TO were 1B schools but joined up for football and springs sports and played those as 2Bs. Two years ago both qualified for the state 1B boys basketball tournament with the same boys that played 2B football together a few weeks earlier. I agree this should not be allowed to continue (unless one school would not be able to field a time without the combine), but I think a precedent has been set in the classification cycle before this one, and most in the district are moving forward as if this will again be the situation the next two years.
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Post by GridironBeez on Jan 6, 2010 13:41:36 GMT -5
Any status or confirmation on Leagues for 2010?
Any word on Liberty Christian or TCP to play down or Pomeroy making their final decision to opt up or not? I can't seem to get any answers...
It looks like the only two teams that have to decide to play down (ineligible) or not are Liberty Christian and Tri-Cities Prep. They are the two teams that will have less than 20 kids, everyone else in 2b ranks looks like they will be fine with numbers.
Also, anything on the Odessa-Harrington combo talks? Sprague?
Typically we have had several teams with delicate number issues to decide if they can play 2b or have to play ineligible 1b. The new classification system looks to have limited that to just 2 teams this year, so that is certainly good overall. This should be the fewest number of ineligible teams playing 8-man since the new 2 year classification scenario started.
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Post by prescottiger on Jan 6, 2010 20:44:04 GMT -5
What about Republic and Mary Walker? We heard there might only be 5 in the NE 2B this year.
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